USB Support

Remember this is a 1.44Mb floppy disk router, space is limited.

Postby h82sk8 » Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:31 am

<font color='#000000'>Would this be possable? ???</font>
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Postby compbrain » Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:06 am

<font color='#000080'>Hello.
To answer your question in a word: "no" :(
I belive that USB requires a 2.2.x kernel and freesco uses a 2.0.x i belive.
Sorry. :sleepy:
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Postby Aeternus » Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:45 pm

<font color='#000000'>Well, it -would- be possible, but it'd require a complete rewriting of Freesco. So practically it's not possible.</font>
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Postby MeneM » Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:56 am

<font color='#384878'>Seeing that in the future more and more USB modems come out. It may be something Freesco should consider.

On the other hand. UTP is standard at the moment More standard than USB. I mean we have USB 2.0 now, and who knows what will supperceed that in the future. Where does it end.

No, I think making a decent, stable, great router like what Freesco is now, is more than enough.

Mark</font>
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Postby deoren » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:26 pm

It's possible, but will require work. But don't let that stop you! I was told similar things when I first asked about making a bootable Freesco cd.

Keep pushing ahead and you can succeed!

More than likely you would have to have a larger media type: 1.6 MB floppy image, 2.88 MB floppy image, cd, ... as the floppy is severely limited in terms of space.

You could modify the base distro image to remove options you don't need though, which would free up some space.

Ex: take out lpd option, possibly even dialup options if you don't use those, etc. Slim it down some so you can get the necessary room.

If you had to, you could use two floppies, and just modify the startup scripts.

In short, a bit of work, but well worth the effort.

Good luck, any/all of you!

P.S.

I noticed Lightning made a post that they are contemplating 2.2.x series of kernels for future releases, so if you can wait for that, then you're set.
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Postby NotQuiteSane » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:31 am

If you had to, you could use two floppies, and just modify the startup scripts. 


Well, you got me thinking. more / better / actual tests need to be done, but...

using fdformat it is possible to format a 3.5" floppy to 1.72mb

using "stripped" kernel
Code: Select all
[nqs@idiot nqs]% du -hsc /usr/src/linux/System.map /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/net/3c509.ko /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/usb/host/uhci-hcd.ko /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/usb/atm/*
692K    /usr/src/linux/System.map
1.1M    /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage
16K     /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/net/3c509.ko
36K     /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/usb/host/uhci-hcd.ko
16K     /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/usb/atm/speedtch.ko
16K     /lib/modules/2.6.13-gentoo-r3teena-01/kernel/drivers/usb/atm/usbatm.ko
1.8M    total


according to <a href='http://www.dirac.org/linux/system.map/' target='_blank'>http://www.dirac.org/linux/system.map/</a> System.map does not have to reside in /boot. that brings us down to 1.2mb. my /boot/grub is 442kb., however i calculate I could bring that down to 114kb (lots of useless *-stage1.5 files) brings us back up to 1.32mb modules are an average of 21kb. we should set aside 100kb for user selected modules (i'd not build in any network cards, let the user copy from a provided list of modules as to "universal" modules (i.e. ip tables provide in the initrd symlinks to them in a compress file system

so far we're up to 1.41mb, leaving us 317 kb in which to create our initrd + squashfs tools

I'm ahaving trouble finding documentation (and hence why i need to build an actual test system), but according to <a href='http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-401647.html' target='_blank'>http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-401647.html</a> squashfs reduces filesystems by 95%. so if our other floppy is also 1.72mb and hold /usr to be uncompressed and mounted to /usr, it would hold 34.4mb worth of files. if we built against uclibc + kept the minimalistic approach freesco is using, there's a ton of utilities we could include. me, besides the ones already avadiable, i'd want shorewall (iptables front end) and files to control my speedtouch (usb) dsl modem). perhaps some intrusion detectors (i.e. snort) would be good to include also. if the actual # of programs remained small enough, we could leave room for 3rd party packages utilizing a shell script to make the directory (i.e. /usr/fortune) and mount the compressed fs to that point. or...

it would take up more bandwidth, but, since we'd likely be creating a larger ramdisk (16mb mininum), we could store said squashfs packages on an internal ftp server and use wget to copy those to the ramdisk, them mount them from there. my arguement against this method is a firewall / router doesn't need anything else. remember KISS. except for usb and wireless, there is no reason (IMO) to goto a newer kernel, so if you (for instance) want a web server, or mail, or print, use a unique box for each, and reduce the risk of hackers compermising your firewall by finding exploits in other services

NQS
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Postby Lightning » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:18 pm

I have investigated over sized floppies for quite some time and I keep coming back to a stock 1.44. There are multiple reasons and not the least of which is how easy is it to use an oversized floppy in other systems. It actually requires adding extra software to make and or read these floppies which only tends to complicate the instalation proccess and make adding drivers more difficult. Personally I have made 1.72 and 1.68 floppies with FREESCO on them and I can say that the 1.68 is more compatible with a larger number of floppy drives. However I have also made 1.48Mb floppies which is in reality a better format because standard systems will read the disk without extra programming. You also can reduce the file descriptors in the root directory to gain even another 6K of disk space. But regardless it still comes back to needing extra software to create the floppy in the first place.

i have also looked at upgrading to a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel which could support USB and there is lots of various ways to impliment such a task with the new uClib and varous types of file systems that are intended to gain disk space. There has even been some work done on accomplishing such a task by one of the team members to the point of a running system at least. Of course what most are not compoletely aware of is that USB is very processor intensive and systems would definately need a lot more horsepower and recourses to run it.

The reality:
I have spent the last five years working on the current system and this type of a change would mean basically starting from scratch. Which at present I am still unwilling to take on such a task until I am satisfied with the 03x series and feel it can go no further.
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Postby G-Man » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:07 am

i dont want disrespect freesco and the work and time put in it BUT

if you wish to use a USB 2.0 you would have a newer computer, and that is P3 or newer, if you have a P3 and newer you have the option of useing a 1gig ram, inrealety this system is major overkill for freesco so you would be better off useing a (as example ) bootable suse cdrom(as easy to set up for freesco style use), as it will have all the options freesco have and more, it would also be "faster" as have the chip driver preinstalled.

so if you have a P1 and older, or dont have +300meg ram then freesco is your frend.
freesco is verry stabe/fast even compared to relly good and expensive hardware nats.

freesco :wub:

i loved freesco on first use, and still use it despite i could replace it... and i run several nat types from several sorces. i must admit that ive made a "freesco clone" useing a 2.4 kernel that supports usb 2 and more but it aint a easy floppy install like freesco and thus not for the faint of heart as its a full blown system with everything i could wish for.
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Postby NotQuiteSane » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:35 pm

Lightning wrote:I have investigated over sized floppies for quite some time and I keep coming back to a stock 1.44. There are multiple reasons and not the least of which is how easy is it to use an oversized floppy in other systems. It actually requires adding extra software to make and or read these floppies which only tends to complicate the instalation proccess and make adding drivers more difficult. Personally I have made 1.72 and 1.68 floppies with FREESCO on them and I can say that the 1.68 is more compatible with a larger number of floppy drives. However I have also made 1.48Mb floppies which is in reality a better format because standard systems will read the disk without extra programming. You also can reduce the file descriptors in the root directory to gain even another 6K of disk space. But regardless it still comes back to needing extra software to create the floppy in the first place.


durn power blinked. now i have to re-type. anyhow, I think the "single floppy" is the biggest limitation. even 2 1.44mb floppies is 2.88 mb, which is quite a bit.

i have also looked at upgrading to a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel which could support USB and there is lots of various ways to impliment such a task with the new uClib and varous types of file systems that are intended to gain disk space. There has even been some work done on accomplishing such a task by one of the team members to the point of a running system at least.


I'm working myself on building a system using uclibc In tests, I/ve reduced the /usr on my server to a hair inder 25% of orginal size. still big, but better. The biggest problem is the compressed file systems are not re-writeable, meaning patches cannont be implemented under normal use. unionfs maybe a solution to that problem, but there still needs to be a way to keep updates permament.

I'd like to keep it under 2 (even overformatted) floppies, but I suspect that most likely I'll be using a small CF card. already got a 16mb card and found an adapter for about $12, , but even if I had to buy the card, it's about the same as a new floppy + box of disks

Of course what most are not compoletely aware of is that USB is very processor intensive and systems would definately need a lot more horsepower and recourses to run it.


So you don't think my 486 can run it?

The reality:
I have spent the last five years working on the current system and this type of a change would mean basically starting from scratch. Which at present I am still unwilling to take on such a task until I am satisfied with the 03x series and feel it can go no further.


for me, at least, i'd like to use my usb modem w/ freesco, but it's not required.

in short, freesco could be better, but it's still a pretty good product

NQS
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Postby NotQuiteSane » Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:12 am

G-Man wrote:if you wish to use a USB 2.0

What do you need usb 2.0 in conjuction with freesco for? I mean, we're talking 10 Mb trasfer rate, and most of the faster stuff connects by ethernet cable.

for freesco, we're talking usb modems and usb printers. 10Mb is plenty for those

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Postby RayDeN » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:30 am

For USB support you can use kernel 2.1.18 with ACM.o module
for use with cell phones and gprs for instance.

Dont know how much space was needed ... this setup was from time ago
for my old satellite laptop.

Let my dig in my files .... and try to predict space needs.-

Changing subject FREESCO rocks !! B)
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Postby G-Man » Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:38 am

usb2, a hdd is one use, other uses i donno. i use tp nics for net, and hda / sda for hds, usb? dont use it mutch as so slow, even 2.0 is slow.
but my point is that if RELLY need usb, and have a fast box, a newer kernel lnx would solve it, as its not so hard to setup a nat/fw on lnx as all parts are there by def. so its easyer to do that then trying to get usb working with freesco currently.
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Postby Belmontemarin_as_guest » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:53 pm

Maybe dumb question, but...

(USB support) can't be done at application level? (instead at kernel level)

This will open the possibilities of an 'USB modem driver', 'USB ADSL modem', ... as package.

What do you think?
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Postby Lightning » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:39 pm

What do you think?

It sounds like a great idea, but I don't think it can be done. Although it would be great to be wrong on this.
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Postby Thasaidon » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:13 am

Allthough Freesco does not support USB, you can use an USB keyboard,
provided the BIOS has a setting in which you can enable "usb keyboard support".

I have an USB keyboard hooked up to my USB kvm-switch.
One of the outgoing USB ports is connected to my Freesco pc's USB port,
and the BIOS (or motherboard) handles the USB input and somehow converts it.

But it works regardless...

However, USB support would be a great option for Freesco, but I too doubt if it will ever come to that (at least in the floppy version).
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